Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (00:28.952)
Hi, everybody. I am Arjun, your host of Rethink CRO podcast. Welcome. Today we are super excited to welcome James Buckley to the podcast. Many of you in the sales profession, you have already heard James talking. James is the host of one of the most popular Sell Better Daily Sales Show. And he interviews top sales and marketing experts every single day to deliver tactics and techniques to a wide array of sales practitioners and leaders. So we are super excited to learn more from him and what's happening in the revenue space today and what we can look forward in the future.
James, you will make some predictions, I hope, and we'll talk tactics, execution, so that everyone gets something from the podcast today as a takeaway. Welcome to the show, James.
James Buckley (01:35.005)
I have a lot
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (01:38.168)
Go ahead.
James Buckley (01:38.921)
Yes, thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. It's always good to come out and give some feedback and talk about some of the things that I'm seeing in the space. I am a practitioner, a host, and the show is probably one of my favorite things that I get to do every day. We have about 750 folks that register for every single show. And it's a beautiful thing because everybody benefits. Our sponsors benefit from getting in front of our audience, and our audience benefits from the experts that come into the room and share incredible insights on how to...
Actually do sales in the modern age so sell better dot XYZ is where you can check that out and let's get to it man I love I love Q &A stuff. I like big question and answer stuff We could go on and on because we've already we've already done business together, so I feel like I'm right at home
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (02:23.574)
Yep, let's do this. Let's start with the harder one. What is keeping you at night these days in 2025?
James Buckley (02:30.485)
I'm gonna say something that's gonna resonate with every 40 plus year old seller out there. My relevance keeps me up at night. I struggle to be that unique creator now because the influencer marketing game has just become rampant and I don't see it being a long lasting thing. I'm a naysayer in that space and I think that...
I've taken a big step back from social because I don't want to get labeled as an influencer. And I don't want to be this random person that shows up in a feed and talks about a tool that I don't even really use. I never want to be that person. So I try to use all the stuff that I tell people to use if I can. And that's the part that I think keeps me up at night is the hypocrisy behind what's happening in our space today.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (03:25.71)
So you think a lot of the posts that we see on LinkedIn, they are from paid influencers.
James Buckley (03:31.485)
I think that the paid influencers and the companies that paid them would admit that they've paid them. That is the current marketing space today. And it's been that way for a couple of years now. Here's why, here's my prediction. You said earlier that you hope I make some predictions. I'm going to give you one now. By the end of 2026, maybe even before then, you're going to hear influencers that were getting paid to post about tools to start saying things like,
Protect your network, protect your followers from bad messaging. Here's what's happening. Arjun, you and I both know in 2015 when automation was everything, it was like, I'm gonna automate my outreach. Let's build giant lists and throw people into all this automation and rah rah rah, we make money. Fantastic. Okay, fast forward to today. We have this two year push that we've experienced about Automation Plus.
AI. Now there's this thing that thinks for us and gets all this messaging together and pumps it all out. Now in the process of this influencers with enormous followings have been picked up as marketing leads, vocals for all of these companies. So the companies pay them $10,000 to post this post. Anyone that engages comments, likes, reacts, they all get their information scraped from the tools that are out there that do this. And then they get
blasted with templated messaging, automated messaging. It's the same cycle. Eventually, those followers were gonna get wise and they're gonna say, every time I like this post, I get this crap email or I can't avoid it now in my feed. It's everywhere and I just wanna hide and, you know, mute this channel because I can't get away from it. I predict this to be detrimental.
to what it is doing for companies today in the next year and a half to two years. And I think the marketing message will change from hire influencers, that's the best way to go, to protect your list and make sure that you're getting the right people in there for the right reasons.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (05:44.654)
Got you, that's interesting. So you mentioned about the two years where all of this change happened and parallely this AI and everything has changed quite a bit, but you have a vantage point into this space. So tell us a little bit more about how you got into sales, when you got into sales and a little bit of your experience so we can put it in perspective.
James Buckley (05:53.887)
button.
James Buckley (06:03.987)
Yeah, so I like long walks on the beach in the middle of the night. It's a beautiful thing. I'm just kidding. I cut my teeth in door-to-door sales, and prior to that, I was a 15-year restaurant veteran. So I worked as a cook, a busboy, a manager, a shift lead, a server, a bartender, a host. If you name it, I've done it at a restaurant. Why does this matter? Well...
I believe that restaurant people are trained to get the fear out of talking to strangers out of us. If you notice, when you go to a restaurant and you sit down with your family, that person will come up on you and say, hi, welcome to Applebee's, my name's James, I'll be your server tonight, would you like to start off with some nachos, maybe an ultimate margarita? Maybe you can tell I've done that a time or two, right? We have no fear of talking to strangers when we cut our teeth in the restaurant space when we're young. Well, this translates.
really well into things like door-to-door sales, and I did B2B and door-to-door residential. So it turns out I'm a funny guy. I have a lot of energy, people like to talk to me, and that worked to my advantage when I was in door-to-door sales. Well, after I graduated from college as a non-traditional student in my 30s with four kids divorced in 2014, I was managing a Taco Bell. Third shift, misery, right?
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (07:23.928)
Yeah
James Buckley (07:25.045)
I don't know if you know this, but that is the worst shift on any Taco Bell land. is the worst shift. So I started in SAS in 2015 at a software company in East Tennessee. I'll say it again, just so your viewers can hear it. A software company in East Tennessee. That's real. Anyway, that company, I was there for four years. We built it up from the bottom and we sold it and we moved on. And I started at Ring Lead in 2019, which was then
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (07:42.05)
Yeah. Yeah.
James Buckley (07:54.953)
picked up by Zoom info. And then I moved to John Barrow sales training. And that is where I started to create a lot of great content around sales and sales people. And then COVID slapped everyone in the face. And everything that I had planned for my 2020 went into the gutter. But this opportunity to host these things opened up for me because we moved everything to the digital format.
virtual format. And suddenly I became the host of these webinars alongside great hosts like John Barrows and Morgan J. Ingram and other hosts started to join like Jed Marley and Will Aitken and Adrian Sayah. Caroline Mahoney came in there. There was a ton of fantastic people joining the fray on this thing. And if you'd have told me in 2015 when I
stopped knocking on doors and I started cold calling people that I would one day host the longest running sales daily sales show in existence. I probably would have said you were full of crap. But here we are today and it's the best job in the world. I have a great time doing it and I get to meet a lot of really interesting, fun, exciting people along the way. So all that is to say that that's how I landed where I am and I tell people all the time, sales is just the starting point.
but it's the thing that carries you all the way through your career and you just never know where it can take you. can take you in so many different directions.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (09:28.44)
For sure, Sales is one of the best jobs to have. There's a statistic, for sure, for sure. It is the lens that you look through. There's a stats that says that if you look at the number of CEOs created, sales is the number one department from where CEOs are created, right? it's a...
James Buckley (09:32.113)
And one of the worst. And one of the worst.
James Buckley (09:45.077)
Every CEO or founder was the first salesperson. I say that all
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (09:50.862)
At some point, yes, exactly. So you mentioned about the influencer marketers and how influencer marketers are kind of, you know, probably driving towards a wall. So what is top of mind for you in 2025 that you want to do that is potentially different and where you are focused on today?
James Buckley (10:08.563)
I want to close a gap. It's a generational gap. I believe that there's a massive gap, and there has been for years, between leaders and frontline practitioners. When you think about what a 27-year-old or 26-year-old college graduate comes into as an SDR, what is it? You hand them maybe a laptop and a phone number that they tie to their cell, and you say, here's your quota. Good luck.
And then they're supposed to call people and get them interested in your product, right? But there's really not a lot of skill building that comes along with that. I think that's changed quite a bit lately with the advent of folks like us, Sell Better, 30 Minutes to Presidents Club, the Outbound Squad, folks like Tom Slocum and Morgan J. Ingram and John Barrows were out there training teams forever, you know? And then all the learning systems that come along with that. So things have come a long way, but still.
You're 25 you're 26 you're 27 you see the world very differently and most of the time you took that job because You want money and then you get money, but all the while your leaders are telling you more is the answer You know more dials more knocking on doors more emails more social media connections out right more That's the answer, but I think young people today are realizing that the quality is way more important than the quantity
And there's this old question now that gets asked all the time. Would you rather your people make 50 calls and schedule 15 meetings in a day, or would you rather them come to you at the end of the day and say, Hey bud, I hit my 300 dials. No dice today. I rolled a goose egg, but I'll see you tomorrow. We'll hit 300 more. Let's go. I'll take the former over the ladder any day of the week. So that's, so that's something that concerns me. Right. The other thing is that influencer marketing trend that I told you about, but the last one.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (11:56.354)
sure.
James Buckley (12:04.094)
The last one that concerns me is this idea that we can set it and forget it. There are so many tools coming out right now, constantly hitting us with, you can automate this. You can use AI to do this for you. I'm trying to find ways to adopt AI. As a 43 year old man, this is extremely challenging for me. Right? I'm openly admitting that anybody out there that's over the age of 40 changes heart.
We suck at it, right? Right? But I want to do things that make sense and I don't want things to do things for me and that's what's constantly being put in front of me. That's very concerning for me. I don't think I'm going to win by letting it get done for me. I think I need to win by doing things with it that make sense for my flow and for the desired result I'm after for my clients.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (12:35.47)
I'm
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (12:57.922)
Got it, so I guess you're not a big believer in the AISDR systems that are automatically booking meetings for you.
James Buckley (13:04.629)
Actually, I am, but I think that there is a right vertical, a right industry, a right ICP for that. And I think that leaders everywhere need to recognize the fact that those types of solutions are designed for a type of seller and a type of buyer. And those two have to align for that solution to work. And if they don't, what you're gonna do is chase off buyers or offend people, or you're gonna replace your salespeople. And if your solution then doesn't work,
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (13:06.68)
You are.
James Buckley (13:33.461)
You're left high and dry with no one to sell. So like, I think we have to be very cautious. I always make the joke that like John Connor from Terminator is looking back going, hey, didn't you guys see the movie? Right? But realistically, it has to happen. There are so many things that we can do, but just cause we can do something doesn't mean we should. And let's be honest, too many sales reps are out there using these tools for the last two years. And I think the stats still is that 70 % of salespeople miss their quota. 70%, that's not peanuts.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (14:02.85)
Yeah, yeah, it's the majority.
James Buckley (14:03.637)
So what happened? I thought we were solving all these problems. No, we're not solving anything. We're just automating more crap.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (14:06.466)
Yeah, easily.
So if we double click on your comment, right? I also believe AISDRs could work in the inbound motion. know, somebody submitted a form, suddenly reaching out, personalizing, get them on quickly, you know, works. But other than the inbound motion, and I think I may know where you're going, but what other place in sales motion do you think the AISDRs work today?
James Buckley (14:16.884)
rates.
James Buckley (14:29.749)
So I think if you are doing something that is transactional, like, and I'll use this example, sporting ticket sales, right? You have a list of people that are subscribed to get their tickets. So every year, these human beings have to call and get people to renew and get their tickets for the following season. Well, if you have a great AI solution,
It probably could make those calls to those existing ticket season ticket holders and they probably could talk directly to this AI solution and it probably can auto renew them using the same credit card that they have on file. You see, that is a great use case. Let me tell you what's happening right now. That's not effective. I get calls all the time and I am not a hypocrite. So I take all the cold calls I can when I get them, right?
When I hear somebody say, hi, I'm flipping over to a recorded line, okay, and then they flip over and this recording kicks off from another voice, I'm done. That's a terrible use case. And I wouldn't even classify that as AI. I would classify that as a cheap scheme so that the salespeople don't actually have to work.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (15:35.16)
Yeah, that's like, boom. Totally.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (15:47.15)
Yeah, yeah and Actually, they are doing that today because it is illegal to make those calls if it was legal then they wouldn't even have that right they would simply say Yeah, right exactly suddenly go into the recorded line and we are here holding to like what are we talking to like? Why are we talking here? Yeah, so that makes sense. So you talk to a lot of revenue leaders including CRO's a lot of your CRO's are also listeners to you so
James Buckley (15:56.797)
I wouldn't even say that. Exactly.
James Buckley (16:05.065)
That's right.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (16:14.69)
What do you think are the biggest challenges for SEO today?
James Buckley (16:18.525)
Okay, so I'm gonna go on a little bit of a rant here, but I think it's a worthy conversation to have. When you talk about CROs, you're talking about someone that they don't have to wrangle cats. They have to wrangle herds of cats, lots of different groups of types of cats. They have to keep those cats kinda separate. Otherwise, they could get infected with one another. It's very frustrating for a CRO in the modern age. I got marketing creating all the time.
and they seem to just burn through cash. Right? They got lots of budget. I got salespeople who are trying their hardest, but they don't use anything that marketing creates. Marketing tends to give them things, but they can't change fast enough to keep up with it. Also, we release things constantly, and that's always the priority because the new thing is the thing that probably sells. We have 10 things that our product does, and I these people that sell this really well, and these people that sell that really well.
Already everyone listening to this is going how the do CRO's actually make things happen That's one major concern for them. They have to find here's some solutions Build it. Yeah. Yeah
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (17:30.904)
But James, before you get into search, is that new ad? Like what part of that is new? Because CROs, yeah, the title is pretty new, know, until recently the CMOS.
James Buckley (17:40.425)
I would say 2018 I saw it surfacing quite a bit.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (17:43.608)
Right, yeah, so even relatively new in the world that we are talking, let's say the last five or six years, but within that timeframe, the marketing and sales tug of war always existed, right? Product releases, we can argue that it kind of accelerated, but that also kind of existed. what, how...
James Buckley (17:54.869)
That's true.
James Buckley (18:03.039)
But that was not handled by a CRO. That was handled by a CMO, a Chief Marketing Officer. A CRO in 2018, 2019, when it started to really become like a full time role was based on systems and processes. They'd go into the CRM and see how it fed into the sales engagement platforms. They would go to their data management platforms and create automations and integrations that would push into the CRM and then begin
sequences and cadences with their sales enablement tools, etc. etc. Very few wrangling of cats actually took place. It was more like building. It was more like creating an avenue of technology that spoke to one another, and the person benefiting at the end of that tech stream was the seller. That's what a CRO is supposed to do. But now CROs and CMOs and VPs of marketing, they're herd herders.
And it's madness out there. And they're trying to, at the same time, find the tech solutions to solve these problems. I can tell you the problem is not a tech solution. The problem is a culture solution. And it has to be done at all levels across the playing field. Sales has to have a seat at the table in marketing so that marketing knows what's working for sales. Marketing has to be able to speak to sales and tell them what they've created so that they can use it effectively. And leadership...
needs to back up and let these people talk to each other so that they can create something amazing for their buyers.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (19:36.686)
I guess the promise of the CRO was to make that silo break, know, marketing and sales can talk, it's all arranged under the same umbrella. But even today it is not happening. So the solution that you are going to was to make sure that the sales and marketing kind of talks to each other and they are able to exchange their thoughts.
James Buckley (19:55.999)
think there's a step there and that is the facilitation of good conversation between these departments. Good collaboration between these departments. One hand feeds the other, right? That's the way it always works. When they stop talking to each other, it's very difficult for that to happen. I think that there is always going to be some tension between marketing and sales if leadership is compensating them for the same things. A great example of that is trial starts.
I see a lot of startups these days, a lot of mid-market companies that are working towards going upstream, upmarket. They're all the PLG motion. Back in like 2017, 2018, it was free trial this and free trial that, 14 days, right? You could do it. It's all cyclical, it's all happening again now. We're watching this PLG motion take place. The problem was is that every time you sign up for a free trial, the salespeople come at you full throttle.
And you sign up for the demo and you do the demo and the salespeople go and complain. And they say things like, hey, we love doing the demo every 30 minutes, the same demo. Amazing. What a great job. I'm tired of doing the same demo. Only 30 % of these people are buying from us.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (21:00.824)
Yeah.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (21:05.582)
Yeah, yeah. So it's super interesting you say that, right? I look at, I talk to CROs and sales marketing all the time too. The Venn diagram, let's say, the people, the accounts that marketing is targeting, and then the Venn diagram that the sales is targeting and going after, right? You would be amazed at how these Venn diagrams are like, should be together, yes, but how they are.
Ideally the sales Venn diagram should be within the marketing Venn diagram where marketing is doing it for, I don't know, 4,000 accounts and sales is targeting like 30 or 40 of them, right? Whatever. So it's so interesting.
James Buckley (21:41.887)
Companies should do company-wide surveys and ask who their ICP is.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (21:46.476)
Yeah, yeah, they will end up with like 15 different ICPs and if they have 10 products, then they are at 50 ICPs for each product. It will never be. Totally, totally, totally. So these are all the challenges in 2025 and we touched upon this a little bit in terms of what AI is doing, but you know, what parts of these problems are you seeing AI starting to make a headway into where it is starting to solve them effectively?
James Buckley (21:53.973)
It would never be the same. Across the board, it'd be so many different personas.
James Buckley (22:16.691)
Yeah, so this is a complicated question because I think in some ways we're starting to see more problems than we are solutions. But out of that fog, we're beginning to see it come together. And here's what's happening. We're starting to realize that automation is one part of the solution. what's the best way machine learning is probably the best way to say it is another factor. The outcome, what the action.
that takes place. That's the helpful part for process for people that execute steps in a process. And I think what we're starting to see is this rise of like, okay, if we're going to automate this part of your process, what can we put in place? What solutions can we put in place that are going to help to streamline this process that you've created? I'll give a couple of great examples. There are solutions out there. I don't want to name any names because I don't want to get in trouble.
Right? But there are solutions out there that'll find a relevant trigger and it will automatically feed it into a template that you've created and put it into the correct syntax for your message, leaving it so that the salesperson no longer has to set their timer to be able to go find a relevant reason to plug in there manually into that template. This is gold for salespeople. There are other
solutions out there that will recognize when something takes place and then feed it to you in these little windows, pop-ups that come up and go, hey, hey, this person just downloaded this thing, or hey, this person just clicked on this link. Those types of solutions are the same things that we're starting to see trigger events now. Events like people being dropped into other nurture cadences that are contextual for that thing that they just downloaded, right?
Now let's factor in the messaging piece of it. We're starting to see sellers come to this understanding that we can't write better than AI. Whatever we're thinking that we're going to send, just run it through the platform once. Whatever AI solution you might be using to fix your text, make it better. Just run it through once and let the prompt be, make this better. Right? I assure you.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (24:39.874)
Yeah.
James Buckley (24:42.485)
After one, two, three iterations where you're like, make it shorter, make it less about me and more about them, remove words that signal doubt to the reader. If you start slowly working towards these types of prompts, you can even give it your buyer's persona. Act as the VP of Sales at a software company and respond to this email and then put the email. It's gonna give it a go.
You can run these experiments yourself before you even engage with the actual human, giving yourself the best possible chance at a desired outcome.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (25:21.038)
That's awesome. That's awesome. And in your personal life, right, let's say if you could automate one part of your work day, let's focus on work day for this one. What would that one thing that you would want AI to do?
James Buckley (25:27.625)
Yeah. Yeah.
James Buckley (25:33.957)
I would want it to go find ideal customers and personas and drop them in a list in my CRM. And then I would want it to send me an email every morning at 8 a.m. that says, James, there are 16 new ideal clients on this list. Start your day off right here. That would be the best way to start my day.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (25:54.306)
Yeah, you know what happens when we, yeah, we make this episode live and you are gonna get like 20 AISDR companies hitting you saying that we are going to do this exact thing for you.
James Buckley (26:07.775)
Come get it, man, let's do it.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (26:09.55)
Yeah, the good thing for folks who are listening and going to pitch James, he's a sales guy, so he's going to respond to you. I'm not saying he'll give you business, but you at least have an opportunity to get to him. Yeah, exactly. And James, you create a lot of content, but in terms of the content that you consume, is there a book that you really like? You know, a couple of books, couple of podcasts that you listen to?
James Buckley (26:19.605)
That's fair.
James Buckley (26:32.277)
So I listened to a few. First of all, I listened to our own podcast, Sell Better, but that's mostly in the form of like, you know, improvement. I do listen to a lot of nutrition podcasts. I've been big on that lately. Most of the stuff that I've been listening to, listen to a lot of Lord of the Rings stuff. I'm a big nerd when it comes to Middle Earth. You know, from a sales podcast perspective, I like Kevin Dorsey, his Sell Better, Live Better. I really like John Barrows, Make It Happen Monday.
I've always been a fan of the old-school Morgan J. Ingram SCR Chronicles. That was what prompted me to get involved in sales as a media outlet in the first place. If it wasn't for him, I probably wouldn't have gone down this route. Donald Kelly, the sales evangelist, fantastic. Larry Levine, selling from the heart. Lauren Bailey actually puts out some great content. She does this thing called sales shots. They're like webinars, but it's like...
It's like instead of taking a shot, it's like you do the shot and then you get a sales tip. By the time you're done, you're pretty wasted, but it's a lot of fun. You know, these are the types of things that I think are becoming so much more popular and that's, they're so attractive to other people that want to get involved in the community for the sake of like learning from others. I don't know if you saw Arman Farouk and Nick Szegelski from 30 Minutes to President's Club just released Cold Calling Sucks, which is a fantastic book. If you haven't picked that up, there's a lot of great tips and strategies in there as well.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (27:57.208)
That's a lot of recommendations. We'll tag as many as possible in the description for people to make it easy. James, is there anything else that you want to add to the listeners that are new leaders that while they are trying to traverse through this difficult 2025?
James Buckley (28:13.487)
well, so I think the idea that your C-level executives and VPs should be leading the charge, I think is ridiculous. There is a team mentality that every seller, every marketer has to come in with. And no matter what you might think, getting into that team flow is going to serve more prospects. It's gonna convert.
more strangers than you might think. There's a trend right now where people are fractional CROs. You've probably seen a lot of these out there. There's a lot of fractional leadership out there. And I think that that's a fantastic way to run like attempt to hire type of play. But I think it should be that. I don't think people should be like, you know, fractional CRO at multiple companies. You know, they're likely to get exhausted. But I do think that there's a lot of value in
wondering, hey, you know, would I lead that team well? Am I passionate about that solution or that service? Right. And maybe I should go fractionally lead that revenue team over there and help build some processes and systems that make sense and earn that long-term. I'm seeing that become wildly successful for lots of folks. but I also feel like leaders at the other end of the spectrum have to realize that like. Longevity really does matter for senior leadership, a C-level executive that
comes and goes is like a big red flag for a lot of folks on the front lines. And CEOs and CROs and C-level executives should stick around for a little while, right? So that's, those are a couple of things that have been on my mind lately because I've seen so much moving around and every year around this time you start seeing a lot of movement. You start seeing a lot of new positions get started. And, you know, just days ago, these folks were happiest clams and making millions of dollars. And you know, this
this type of circular trend that I see every year, I'm just, I wanna get off the merry-go-round.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (30:16.226)
Got it, got it. It's interesting that you picked that, because it's not something that everybody talks about, but it's something that's very real and we see it all the time in sales companies. Yeah, the culture, the whole sales culture is getting broken every time you make such a big change and it sends a bad message to the buyers. It's all kinds of problems for sure. If listeners want to learn more or to contact you, where should they go?
James Buckley (30:24.745)
Yeah, it's a problem.
James Buckley (30:34.879)
Yeah, big red flag.
James Buckley (30:40.851)
Yeah, connect with me on all the social platforms at Say What Sales. It's all one word. That's my personal brand, James Say What Sales Buckley on LinkedIn, but I will warn you, I'm very fast approaching the 30,000 connection limit, which is just crap. I still don't know why that's a thing. I'll bang on LinkedIn's door until you change it, guys. Like, make it happen. And then I'll say that...
you can reach out, sellbetter.xyz is the website and right up at the top there you'll see the daily sales show. You can look at the upcoming shows and then right next to it there's a little button that says on demand. I would encourage everybody to go in there and think about the skills that you wanna develop because you can literally search cold call, email, cadence, negotiation, whatever the skill is that you wanna get better at. We have guests that are experts that have been on the show and talked us through it so.
Go get the resources. It's all free stuff. Nobody pays for anything. We monetize on the sponsorship side. So go get it. It's all there for the taking.
Arjun Pillai | Docket AI (31:44.974)
There you go everybody, James Buckley for you. Thanks a lot James for being here and for the listeners. Thanks for having us and see you next time.
James Buckley (31:53.813)
All right.
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